A 1-dimensional object is nothing more than a mathematical abstraction; it can't exist in reality because its volume must be multiplied by its second -dimensional width of 0. A 2-dimensional object can't exist because its volume must be multplied by its third-dimensional width of 0. Is it really justified to make any exceptions to this epistemological problem just because reality happens to have X dimensions, and presume that an object of 3 dimensions can have a 4th-dimensional width of exactly 0? It seems more consistent and simpler to assume that a 3-d object has a very small yet non-zero 4th-dimensional width, and furthermore that in order to have a 4-spatial-dimensional existence it must have a very small yet non-zero 5-dimensional width, and so on. Even string theory only assumes a maximum of 26 dimensions--but if the object's 27th-dimensional width is 0, its volume must be zero ergo it doesn't exist! (provided that epistemological/ metaphysical principle of requiring width in the higher dimensions in order to have non-zero volume is persistent.) It would seem that any object probably has small yet existent width in all dimensions onto infinity, or else it doesn't exist because it has 0 volume. You may say that in 2-dimensional space a 2-dimensional object with no 3rd-d width CAN exist, and likewise concerning 3-d space vs. a 3-d object-- but I would argue that even the 2-dimensional space itself is NOTHING other than a mathematical fantasy and can;t truly exist in any way, and the same should go for a strictly 3-dimensional existence, 4-dimensional existence, or even 10- or 26-d existence. astarius: so you're basically saying that these are theories nothing more, and that we call them dimensions to depict our theories? Saget0be: not really astarius: so we can satisfy are grossly need to exploit ideas astarius: and concepts astarius: sounded like that to me Saget0be: basically i'm saying that you could look at it in a way that implies that there must be an infinite number of dimensions Saget0be: and theoretically you can have a finite number of dimensions but on another level that seems theoretically counter-intuitive astarius: but you speak about epistemology or whatever isn't that more inclined towards philosophy Saget0be: well astarius: than science Saget0be: it is a philosophical argument astarius: I'm sure astarius: and if it is astarius: actually I'm not sure astarius: but I'm going to agree with you on that point Saget0be: :-) astarius: and if reality is infinite-dimensional? astarius: ok wait Saget0be: ? astarius: we have theorized astarius: that that we exist in a 3-d environment? astarius: is that not right? Saget0be: well for all practical purposes we exist in 3-d but actually we exist in more dimensions ubt the higher dimensions aren't apparent because they're curled up into tiny tubes astarius: Well then astarius: Why would we not be able to visually see any other dimensions past ours Saget0be: we can't see in more dimensions because our environment is 3-d like you said. well, it's _practically_ 3-d. it's like imagine some kind of life existing as colorful patterns within an oil film on top of a lake Saget0be: it would know a 2-dimensional existence Saget0be: but it's actually existing in 3-d Saget0be: it just doesn't know it Saget0be: because it's 3-d width is so miniscule Saget0be: so it would never see or comprehend a cube Saget0be: only a square Saget0be: but what if someone drew a cube like this astarius: yeah ok that's comprehensible astarius: I understand that Saget0be: like how you draw it on paper Saget0be: then they might be able to figure it out by looking at it Saget0be: but it would take a while Saget0be: and what if someone wrote a program that simulates a cube and you can rotate it on all its axes Saget0be: it simulates it in 2-d Saget0be: but monitors in their world are just a line, so you need 2-d glasses to see it in 2-d :-) astarius: ok so would the 4-d be in the prime material? Saget0be: what? astarius: well would things existing in 4-d be matter? astarius: would it be composed of the same materials? astarius: basic elements astarius: atoms Saget0be: oh i see astarius: molecules Saget0be: i think if there were a 4-d space.. where you actually could move around in 4-d and see in 4-d... matter would probably be totally different Saget0be: but i'm not positive astarius: it would probably not be because it doesn't seem possible to have molecules exsting on for instance that 2-d realm upon the surface of a lake Saget0be: well, actually, in the example of the 2-d realm.... Saget0be: they ARE made of molecules! astarius: what how is that? Saget0be: the molecules are just trapped in a thin l ayer Saget0be: they're made of oil remember? astarius: well astarius: that's odd Saget0be: but upon studying the molecules, they would discover that they behave in strange ways, that you can flip them around in 3 dimensions astarius: A single molecule Saget0be: even though they presumeably exist in 2-d Saget0be: and you know what astarius: would take up more space in a 2-d space then a 3-d space astarius: wouldn't it Saget0be: subatomic particles, in our reality, have a 'spin' Saget0be: which is actually its orientation in the fourth dimension!!! Saget0be: do you see what i'm saying? astarius: you know another point astarius: if that is so astarius: these molecules astarius: resemble the planets in various solar systems including ours astarius: can it not be that we are a finite part of a infinite system astarius: of molecules scaled by x amount astarius: of size Saget0be: yeah it could be that our galaxies are space dust to some larger creatures. astarius: and since the molecules that we know of astarius: can actually have a different time continium astarius: and we have studied the callapse of other stars in other solar systems, and when the die it destroys it's inhabitant planets. Cannot it not be in the same manner that atoms collapse or die? astarius: and do the same thing Saget0be: well.. i wouldnt so quickly compare atoms to solar systems astarius: well by relative size no astarius: but they do have similar manerism do they not? Saget0be: because electrons arent really solid objects, they're more like points of energy.. parts of a wave.. Saget0be: and astarius: well what if like I said Saget0be: two atoms of the same element are basically identical Saget0be: whereas two solar systems, even with the same number of planets, are totally distinguishable Saget0be: in their exact make-up astarius: as molecules and atoms join they create matter right? Saget0be: thus allowing for finer detail Saget0be: and life to exist on a planet Saget0be: within that detail Saget0be: but i don't know if that kind of detail can exist in an atom Saget0be: maybe in some esoteric sense Saget0be: having to do with the wave patterns astarius: well perhaps we are at the end of the spectrum or the beggining Saget0be: molecules and atoms are matter Saget0be: but you don't see it unless it's in a large clump astarius: ok so if you have enough of them in one clump Saget0be: of billions of molecules astarius: well I'm straying from what I'm trying to convey Saget0be: we could be at the beginning of the spectrum, but there could be another kind of spectrum that's incomprehensible to us that starts just below ours Saget0be: we could also be at the end of a spectrum and that's why it's so hard to observe individual atoms. Saget0be: they're soo small relative to us Saget0be: bacteria are lower down on the spectrum astarius: urg Saget0be: we're absolutely huge astarius: stop Saget0be: and we don't realize it astarius: hehe astarius: and that thing about solar systems varying, atoms vary acording to the amount of electrons, protons and neutrons it contains, thus making up an element astarius: but again that's straying from what I want to convey astarius: molecules or atoms those small things Saget0be: yeah they vary according to that but that's different.. you can't have two identical solar systems but you can have two identical atoms if they happen to be of the same element Saget0be: so there just isnt that much detail astarius: there is a possibility that they can have their own time? In which it may actually be slower than the time we actually exist in astarius: and in the emense size of the planets that their time is faster than ours Saget0be: i think perception of time is faster for smaller entities astarius: yes astarius: exactly astarius: so you can possibly agree on that right? Saget0be: aon what exactly? astarius: that perception of time is faster for smaller entities and slower for larger entities Saget0be: oh, yeah, probably Saget0be: but i dunno.. think of snails... ;-) Saget0be: they're slow even to us astarius: but that's not the point Saget0be: i think you're right, that doesnt really touch on the basic principle astarius: because sloths are inherently slow Saget0be: right astarius: ok astarius: anyhow astarius: you said something about molecules and atoms astarius: that they are points of energy? astarius: right astarius: so they really can't be solid astarius: but if they were to clump in huge numbers astarius: they would actually form a solid base astarius: right? Saget0be: welllllllllllll Saget0be: it's hard to explain Saget0be: how i see it astarius: that's still not the point astarius: hehe Saget0be: hmm Saget0be: yeah i believe that electrons aren't solid in the sense that your hand is solid Saget0be: but your hand is essentially made up of non-solid subatomic particles Saget0be: so Saget0be: solidity is just an artifact of the way that energy interacts astarius: yes that makes sense Saget0be: on large scales astarius: but not all atoms create the same elements astarius: or molecules for that matter astarius: there are gases astarius: solids and liquids Saget0be: right astarius: what would happen if we were to scale an atom/molecule? Saget0be: the closest you can get to that is to make a bose-einsteinian condensate Saget0be: which i think is a clump of atoms super-cooled which tends to act like a single atom astarius: explain that again Saget0be: otherwise, there are larger electrons called muons but i don't know about larger protons are neutrons Saget0be: with which to make a bigger atom Saget0be: if that's what you mean by scale astarius: but I mean not in a literal sense, Saget0be: ? astarius: urg Saget0be: urn astarius: scale the object, not by convential means, but by theory astarius: imagine it astarius: only astarius: heh astarius: that if it were larger Saget0be: do you mean make a theoretical atom that's as big as your hand? astarius: say the size of a tennis ball Saget0be: i think that in order to do that you'd have to change some fundamental variables Saget0be: in such a way that it contradicts observed reality Saget0be: for example the planck constant astarius: but it's feasable to say that if you were capable of doing that, that that atom or molecule, what have you, would be actually be composed of smaller atoms or molecules? astarius: in a sense Saget0be: ermmm Saget0be: no i dont think it would Saget0be: not to our knowledge at least. Saget0be: i think it would be composed of energy densities astarius: probably because we haven't been able to determine what makes up molecules? Saget0be: well you have a point Saget0be: in that Saget0be: we don't know if quarks are made up of anything smaller Saget0be: they might be Saget0be: which are then made of something even smaller, etc etc. Saget0be: but still, sub-atomic particles are considered to be -interchangeable- Saget0be: so they like have no uniqueness, whereas a planet or a hand does astarius: but it's possible that it can probably have the same make up of matter that we can see Saget0be: well Saget0be: that depends on Saget0be: whether you can configure an extremely large amount of atoms Saget0be: to move in an energy pattern Saget0be: that resembles a huge atom Saget0be: and that's very hard to imagine. astarius: isn't a star/sun astarius: similar in regards to an atom Saget0be: not really. astarius: as it is it's nucleus Saget0be: for one thing, atoms are interchangeable (supposedly), stars aren't. Saget0be: stars have specifics astarius: and it's inhabiting planets are it's neurons/protons/electrons Saget0be: a scaled atom would be totally different from a star astarius: oh definetely Saget0be: iFFF Saget0be: IF there is life within an atom Saget0be: it would be either many orders smaller than comparing the nucleus to a star Saget0be: or it would be life unlike any life we know of Saget0be: or both astarius: yeah exactly something we probably aren't capable of fathoming astarius: but then with that it's a possibility that these similarities are just resized indefinitely astarius: and are governed by the same laws astarius: but in essence they are really different because of their size Saget0be: it might be like a fractal where the pattern is repeated on a super small scale (orders of magnitude smaller than the geometric difference between a quark and a star even), yet not repeated *exactly*, it could have slight differences each repetition Saget0be: or large differences astarius: yeah astarius: in that case this universe if there is such a thing Saget0be: due either to the slight differences in fundamental constants, or just the way their universe happened to explode or the courses evolution happened to take astarius: the more I seem to break it down astarius: the more possibilities come to mind astarius: and the more it's difficult to actually concede with a conclusion Saget0be: it's funny how far we'ne digressed from the original discussion.. and i'm still adding it all to the file .. *grin* astarius: yeah know perhaps our universe if there is such a thing Saget0be: is that yeah now or you know? astarius: yeah, you know astarius: hehe Saget0be: oh Saget0be: ok Saget0be: hehe Saget0be: . astarius: there is the possibility that existence is probably a computer program Saget0be: maybe the scale loops Saget0be: you must have seen The Matrix too many times ;-) astarius: No astarius: Or perhaps not a program astarius: but just a varying paterns of electricity Saget0be: i think it's extremely unlikely that our existence is a computer prorgam.. the second theory sounds closel to the truth Saget0be: not necessarily electricity per se, but one fundamental universal fluid/energy type astarius: not a program astarius: I was getting romantical for a second Saget0be: btw it's been theorized that there is only one electron Saget0be: which w ould explain why they're interchangeable Saget0be: and why they jump around probably astarius: yeah astarius: yeah astarius: electrons are whores Saget0be: and god is the pimp. astarius: heh astarius: so if there is a divinity astarius: it would be a higher form of electricity Saget0be: i read that our souls are electric astarius: but that means they are just beings like ourselves who don't realize we exist astarius: because we are to small to fathom Saget0be: it makes me wonder about the electric chair Saget0be: what if the electric chair destroys your soul? astarius: that's probably why they invented it Saget0be: of all ways to kill someone, why electrocute them anyway? Saget0be: i think i heard that the guy who invented the electric chair was.. all.. gooky astarius: because so they won't be repeat offenders in the future Saget0be: hahahahahaha Saget0be: damn. astarius: the government knows it's shit Saget0be: that's just wrong. Saget0be: so wrong. astarius: because if that is true astarius: if we are composed of energy astarius: we are released when we die astarius: but only to be picked up again astarius: in some other organism astarius: or molecule or atom Saget0be: i'm as yet unclear on what happens when you die Saget0be: i know that two angels come to pick you up Saget0be: but i dont know what happens after that astarius: that will eventually become an organism Saget0be: too many doctrines. astarius: two angels? astarius: acording to the bible? Saget0be: i dunno if that's in the bible or not Saget0be: but i know it's two from at least three sources astarius: so how do you know to angels come and pick you up? astarius: what did you know before you existed? Saget0be: trv'ers destribe two amorphous entities that come when a person dies Saget0be: rey says that in his dream when he died or something two angels came.. black angels Saget0be: and i heard at least one other place that it's two angels, but i don't remember how/where. Saget0be: before you existed you knew nothing and everything Saget0be: i wonder what an electron knows. astarius: you couldn't know anything before you exhisted astarius: existed Saget0be: i bet an electron experiences pure bliss Saget0be: well, inasmuch as you can even ask the question 'what DID YOU know befdore you existed', you knew everything and nothing astarius: because you didn't work in a community of atoms and molecules that helped each other to create thought Saget0be: but it's questionable whether you can even ask that question or not Saget0be: i could probably make an argument for w hy yo can ask that question if i felt like thinking astarius: I don't know astarius: but there is so many things astarius: are souls are shattered when we die astarius: if it's composed of electricity astarius: and you know hell and heaven that is spoken about Saget0be: i heard that loud soinds can set you back several lifetimes. astarius: hmm astarius: elaborate Saget0be: hell and heaven is a very one-dimensional way of considering all of creation Saget0be: sounds Saget0be: i guess because it disrupts your spirit's patterns Saget0be: the air molecules moving back and forth rapidly Saget0be: also moving your electricity astarius: well I work around airplanes that are really loud Saget0be: i went to a rave once.. i still have a ring in my ear. astarius: it's going to get louder when I go to the boat in two weeks living under the flight deck Saget0be: it's extremely high pitched.. higher than most people can even hear. astarius: I disrupted my ear drum badly one night astarius: it hurt really bad Saget0be: by sticking a pencil in your ear? astarius: and things where scrambled when I sound was produced astarius: it sounded like a shhhhhh astarius: sound Saget0be: ew, weird. astarius: when I heard sound astarius: I was next to a giant speaker at a club for an hour I think Saget0be: sheesh astarius: I didn't realize that until I left Saget0be: now you'll have to re-live your previous 5 lives over again. :-) Saget0be: i hope they were fun. astarius: I had more than that I believe astarius: you know come to think of it Saget0be: i think i was a god in past lives astarius: I am made up of a billion dead organisms in this world Saget0be: either that or a guide Saget0be: hmm Saget0be: that's true, they're dead because you ate them . astarius: well no not really Saget0be: that's where all your make-up comes from Saget0be: what you eat astarius: I'm just pieces of each of their energy astarius: gathered astarius: you know you are never actually finite Saget0be: ooh deep astarius: your body is allways recreating and building itself Saget0be: nod astarius: because it's hard to sustain matter astarius: that breaks itself down Saget0be: every 7 years all of your cells have been regenerated astarius: constantly astarius: and that's why it appears that we are consumed by time astarius: not because time is aging us Saget0be: 'time is digesting us.' Saget0be: i read something interesting yesterday astarius: but because the body can't efficiently produce the same results after every new generation that it spawns Saget0be: that the soul energy is always diffusing into the body to help it out, and then recycling back into the soul Saget0be: but Saget0be: a little bit is always lost Saget0be: and Saget0be: your soul starts with a limited amount of energy Saget0be: so astarius: that's what ages us Saget0be: when your soul runs out of energy, the body dies Saget0be: and your soul goes to get recharged Saget0be: i dunno if i believe that theory, shrug Saget0be: the soul energy was considered distinct from orgone/chi energy Saget0be: which is of course always replenishable astarius: so you know soul stealing would be like a magnet Saget0be: soul stealing? astarius: however whatever life that that energy was providing would die astarius: because the energy would be absent Saget0be: i heard that there are hungry souls out there who will devour your soul Saget0be: i hope that's not true though. Saget0be: i wonder if there are souls/spirits on eearth in bodies who want to be immortal so they take over younger bodies Saget0be: and the body never realizes that the soul changed astarius: so it's possible to be in a region in the world where the magnetism is great enough to project yours out of your body and cause you to collapse and die Saget0be: body snatchers. Saget0be: hmmmmmmmmmm Saget0be: bermuda triangle ;p astarius: he yeah Saget0be: i have a super-strong magnet on the fridge Saget0be: i've been thinking of holding it up to my head Saget0be: to see what it'd be like Saget0be: but i'm afraid Saget0be: i don't want to hurt myself. astarius: heh astarius: I like my aging idea astarius: it makes sense Saget0be: i tought you said i like my vagina, for a second. Saget0be: the body ages due to entropy astarius: entropy Saget0be: life is a pattern of matter that is self-sustaining Saget0be: it's like a 4-dimensional knot Saget0be: (the fourth dimension being TIME) astarius: entropy astarius: define Saget0be: but it can only sustain itself healthily for so long Saget0be: the pattern digresses Saget0be: specifically, the ends of the genes unravel Saget0be: that's why you start to deteriorate. astarius: yeah Saget0be: entropy is the tendency toward disorder in any system Saget0be: it's the fragmentation of energy vectors astarius: what if you were to keep the cells from dying so exhesively Saget0be: speaking thermodynamically, entropy is the conversion of useable energy into heat astarius: and actually having them sustain themselves for longer periods of time Saget0be: which is like fragmented energy, all the molecules are bouncing around in random directions and hitting eachother Saget0be: someone told me today that in india there are really really old people Saget0be: one person who's been alive since 'the beginnig' Saget0be: beginning Saget0be: and they don't eat Saget0be: it's possible to live without etaing, when you learn how to keep your body replenished using psi energy astarius: hmm? Saget0be: like prana or something astarius: well astarius: that's the same idea behind qi/chi astarius: realizing the bodies energy channels astarius: and keeping them replenished astarius: and open astarius: I'm sure technology will be able to mesh those ideas into nanotechnology Saget0be: te body naturally opens its chakras at night astarius: to prolong our exhistence Saget0be: when you sleep Saget0be: to replenish your chi energy Saget0be: but learning to live without eating is a totally diff. story astarius: yeah you know sleep is very essential Saget0be: that's something you have to train yourself for i guess. astarius: I'm going to get food astarius: save this stuff astarius: I want to read it later Saget0be: if the psi concepts like chi etc. are ever integrated with nanotechnology (assuming that's even feasible and/or useful), that will be along time from now. science currently doesn't even -recognize- these energies, much less persues understanding such. Saget0be: 'm saving it all ;-) astarius: hmm astarius: actually it would be great if science would realize that life needs to be extended astarius: and prolonged Saget0be: i think life will be greatly prolonged in our lifetimes astarius: so we are capable of creating technology at a much faster rate astarius: that's an understatement Saget0be: technology is taking off like a rocket. Saget0be: more or less. astarius: it needs to hurry astarius: so I can be saved Saget0be: i think it needs to slow down Saget0be: before we totally fuck everything up Saget0be: because wisdom needs to catch up with it Saget0be: it's not even close astarius: aand prolonged astarius: brb food astarius: you know if we didn't move around astarius: we would probably live longer astarius: turn.to/rust astarius: http://turn.to/rust astarius: check out my site Saget0be: i don't remember which part it was that i wanted you to do now. Saget0be: just that it was near the bottom Saget0be: i think it was computer crimes: what to do and what not to do